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	<title>Comments for The Biology Blog</title>
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	<description>Biology Blog and Biological Sciences News and Articles</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 03 Mar 2010 10:08:19 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	
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		<title>Comment on Rime of the Pleistocene Mariner (and Other Oddities in Cognitive Evolution) by The Evolution Of Beauty &#124; Freedomz Blog</title>
		<link>http://thebioblog.com/2010/03/rime-of-the-pleistocene-mariner-and-other-oddities-in-cognitive-evolution/comment-page-1/#comment-111</link>
		<dc:creator>The Evolution Of Beauty &#124; Freedomz Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Mar 2010 10:08:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thebioblog.com/?p=457#comment-111</guid>
		<description>[...] Rime of the Pleistocene Mariner (and Other Oddities in Cognitive &#8230;  &#160;Mail this postSHARETHIS.addEntry({ title: &quot;The Evolution Of Beauty&quot;, url: &quot;http://blog.freedomz.info/124/the-evolution-of-beauty/&quot; }); [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Rime of the Pleistocene Mariner (and Other Oddities in Cognitive &#8230;  &nbsp;Mail this postSHARETHIS.addEntry({ title: &quot;The Evolution Of Beauty&quot;, url: &quot;http://blog.freedomz.info/124/the-evolution-of-beauty/&quot; }); [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on Alternate &#8220;life&#8221; styles: scientists predict the possibility of a Shadow Biosphere by What a long strange trip it&#8217;s been: Paul Davies&#8217; New Book and Hadronistry Coined &#124; The Biology Blog</title>
		<link>http://thebioblog.com/2010/02/alternate-life-styles-scientists-predict-the-possibility-of-a-shadow-biosphere/comment-page-1/#comment-109</link>
		<dc:creator>What a long strange trip it&#8217;s been: Paul Davies&#8217; New Book and Hadronistry Coined &#124; The Biology Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Mar 2010 19:25:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thebioblog.com/?p=376#comment-109</guid>
		<description>[...] The Biology Blog Biology Blog and Biological Sciences News and Articles   Skip to content        &#171; Alternate &#8220;life&#8221; styles: scientists predict the possibility of a Shadow Biospher... [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] The Biology Blog Biology Blog and Biological Sciences News and Articles   Skip to content        &laquo; Alternate &#8220;life&#8221; styles: scientists predict the possibility of a Shadow Biospher&#8230; [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on Alternate &#8220;life&#8221; styles: scientists predict the possibility of a Shadow Biosphere by Scientists predict shadow biosphere &#124; Level Beyond</title>
		<link>http://thebioblog.com/2010/02/alternate-life-styles-scientists-predict-the-possibility-of-a-shadow-biosphere/comment-page-1/#comment-108</link>
		<dc:creator>Scientists predict shadow biosphere &#124; Level Beyond</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Feb 2010 08:51:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thebioblog.com/?p=376#comment-108</guid>
		<description>[...] Biology Blog: Scientists predict the possibility of shadow biosphere Recommended Books: The Mammoth Book of True Hauntings (Mammoth Book of) Ghost Hunters: A Guide to [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Biology Blog: Scientists predict the possibility of shadow biosphere Recommended Books: The Mammoth Book of True Hauntings (Mammoth Book of) Ghost Hunters: A Guide to [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on Alternate &#8220;life&#8221; styles: scientists predict the possibility of a Shadow Biosphere by Shadow-Biosphere Life in the Multiverse &#171; DATACHURCH</title>
		<link>http://thebioblog.com/2010/02/alternate-life-styles-scientists-predict-the-possibility-of-a-shadow-biosphere/comment-page-1/#comment-107</link>
		<dc:creator>Shadow-Biosphere Life in the Multiverse &#171; DATACHURCH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Feb 2010 00:19:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thebioblog.com/?p=376#comment-107</guid>
		<description>[...] life may already exist in the shadow [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] life may already exist in the shadow [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on Alternate &#8220;life&#8221; styles: scientists predict the possibility of a Shadow Biosphere by Alternate “life” styles: scientists predict the possibility of a Shadow Biosphere &#171; Xenophilia (True Strange Stuff)</title>
		<link>http://thebioblog.com/2010/02/alternate-life-styles-scientists-predict-the-possibility-of-a-shadow-biosphere/comment-page-1/#comment-106</link>
		<dc:creator>Alternate “life” styles: scientists predict the possibility of a Shadow Biosphere &#171; Xenophilia (True Strange Stuff)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Feb 2010 21:43:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thebioblog.com/?p=376#comment-106</guid>
		<description>[...] via Alternate “life” styles: scientists predict the possibility of a Shadow Biosphere &#124; The Biology .... [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] via Alternate “life” styles: scientists predict the possibility of a Shadow Biosphere | The Biology &#8230;. [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on Alternate &#8220;life&#8221; styles: scientists predict the possibility of a Shadow Biosphere by Larry O'Brien</title>
		<link>http://thebioblog.com/2010/02/alternate-life-styles-scientists-predict-the-possibility-of-a-shadow-biosphere/comment-page-1/#comment-105</link>
		<dc:creator>Larry O'Brien</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Feb 2010 18:55:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thebioblog.com/?p=376#comment-105</guid>
		<description>You&#039;re right that evolution at least sometimes favors compression. But only in a balance with all the other selection pressures. I suspect that all biospheres would be extremely &quot;leaky&quot; in terms of emitting signals, because the amount of diversity needed to &quot;use up&quot; all the energy in a system would be staggering. Tropical rain forests and coral reefs are wildly diverse and famous for absorbing large amounts of the energy that is in them (the thin soil of the rain forest, the efficiency with which reefs clean suspended organic matter) but are still very easily detectable by other ways (chemically, electromagnetically, etc.). Can you imagine a biosphere that was so efficient at consuming energy that it appeared as white noise? (Fun to imagine, but I&#039;d submit unlikely.)

I think that the problem with shadow-biology (which seems to me intuitively VERY possible) is not that we wouldn&#039;t be able to detect its signature, but that the range of things that might signal a shadow-biosphere is very large.  

(On your point about &quot;camouflage vs. efficiency,&quot; it&#039;s interesting to ponder the polar bear, whose hollow fur appears white, both camouflaging and insulating it. Although I doubt that any Arctic prey can see in infrared, the insulating benefit of the fur coincidentally camouflages the bear in IR, hiding that &quot;signal&quot; from scientists in some &quot;All living objects emit large amounts of heat&quot; shadow biosphere.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;re right that evolution at least sometimes favors compression. But only in a balance with all the other selection pressures. I suspect that all biospheres would be extremely &#8220;leaky&#8221; in terms of emitting signals, because the amount of diversity needed to &#8220;use up&#8221; all the energy in a system would be staggering. Tropical rain forests and coral reefs are wildly diverse and famous for absorbing large amounts of the energy that is in them (the thin soil of the rain forest, the efficiency with which reefs clean suspended organic matter) but are still very easily detectable by other ways (chemically, electromagnetically, etc.). Can you imagine a biosphere that was so efficient at consuming energy that it appeared as white noise? (Fun to imagine, but I&#8217;d submit unlikely.)</p>
<p>I think that the problem with shadow-biology (which seems to me intuitively VERY possible) is not that we wouldn&#8217;t be able to detect its signature, but that the range of things that might signal a shadow-biosphere is very large.  </p>
<p>(On your point about &#8220;camouflage vs. efficiency,&#8221; it&#8217;s interesting to ponder the polar bear, whose hollow fur appears white, both camouflaging and insulating it. Although I doubt that any Arctic prey can see in infrared, the insulating benefit of the fur coincidentally camouflages the bear in IR, hiding that &#8220;signal&#8221; from scientists in some &#8220;All living objects emit large amounts of heat&#8221; shadow biosphere.)</p>
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		<title>Comment on Alternate &#8220;life&#8221; styles: scientists predict the possibility of a Shadow Biosphere by Venna</title>
		<link>http://thebioblog.com/2010/02/alternate-life-styles-scientists-predict-the-possibility-of-a-shadow-biosphere/comment-page-1/#comment-104</link>
		<dc:creator>Venna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Feb 2010 14:12:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thebioblog.com/?p=376#comment-104</guid>
		<description>Thank You</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank You</p>
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		<title>Comment on Alternate &#8220;life&#8221; styles: scientists predict the possibility of a Shadow Biosphere by Scientists predict the possibility of “shadow biosphere” &#171; Either/Or/Bored</title>
		<link>http://thebioblog.com/2010/02/alternate-life-styles-scientists-predict-the-possibility-of-a-shadow-biosphere/comment-page-1/#comment-103</link>
		<dc:creator>Scientists predict the possibility of “shadow biosphere” &#171; Either/Or/Bored</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Feb 2010 12:05:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thebioblog.com/?p=376#comment-103</guid>
		<description>[...] link ]     Categories: Science &amp; Technology, esoteric, society &amp; culture Tags: biochemistry, [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] link ]     Categories: Science &amp; Technology, esoteric, society &amp; culture Tags: biochemistry, [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on Alternate &#8220;life&#8221; styles: scientists predict the possibility of a Shadow Biosphere by cyoungbull</title>
		<link>http://thebioblog.com/2010/02/alternate-life-styles-scientists-predict-the-possibility-of-a-shadow-biosphere/comment-page-1/#comment-102</link>
		<dc:creator>cyoungbull</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Feb 2010 04:18:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thebioblog.com/?p=376#comment-102</guid>
		<description>Thank you for this excellent point, it really got me thinking. First off though, &#039;shadow life&#039; as expressed in the Davies paper, while certainly &#039;weird&#039; would likely be easily identified as life once observed, it&#039;s just that it&#039;ll be made of different chirality molecules, or different sets of amino acids, things like that. 

That said, I don&#039;t agree that evolution doesn&#039;t reward compression. Examples immediately come to mind -  &lt;a href=&quot;http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1278/694780262_8874b4f225.jpg&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt; sunflower seed packing&lt;/a&gt;, &lt;a href=&quot;http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/BiologyPages/V/Venation001.jpg&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt; micro-capillary water transport in plants&lt;/a&gt;,  maximal environmental quantum efficiency of photon absorption by &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Chlorophyll_ab_spectra.png&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt; chlorophyll &lt;/a&gt;, &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/post.cfm?id=what-we-can-learn-from-slime-mold-h-2010-01-21&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt; slime mold mimicking of Tokyo rail network efficiency &lt;/a&gt;.

Would such pressure toward efficiency lead naturally to camouflage as amazing as the blackbody spectrum? I am having trouble thinking of why not. Visual appearance is communicated though the electromagnetic spectrum. This of course applies not just to a &quot;powered spectrum&quot; but also to the more common reflected one that most animals utilize. So what is the relationship between efficiency and camouflage? Forgetting spectra for a moment…morphological maximum information packing, for example &lt;a href=&quot;http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3475/3752977319_438d345de4.jpg?v=0&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt; holographic kinoforms &lt;/a&gt;, appears like white noise without the knowledge of how to decompress it.  Some life is just so &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.bnr-art.com/doolitt/pintos.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt; obvious &lt;/a&gt; that we miss it!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for this excellent point, it really got me thinking. First off though, &#8217;shadow life&#8217; as expressed in the Davies paper, while certainly &#8216;weird&#8217; would likely be easily identified as life once observed, it&#8217;s just that it&#8217;ll be made of different chirality molecules, or different sets of amino acids, things like that. </p>
<p>That said, I don&#8217;t agree that evolution doesn&#8217;t reward compression. Examples immediately come to mind &#8211;  <a href="http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1278/694780262_8874b4f225.jpg" rel="nofollow"> sunflower seed packing</a>, <a href="http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/BiologyPages/V/Venation001.jpg" rel="nofollow"> micro-capillary water transport in plants</a>,  maximal environmental quantum efficiency of photon absorption by <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Chlorophyll_ab_spectra.png" rel="nofollow"> chlorophyll </a>, <a href="http://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/post.cfm?id=what-we-can-learn-from-slime-mold-h-2010-01-21" rel="nofollow"> slime mold mimicking of Tokyo rail network efficiency </a>.</p>
<p>Would such pressure toward efficiency lead naturally to camouflage as amazing as the blackbody spectrum? I am having trouble thinking of why not. Visual appearance is communicated though the electromagnetic spectrum. This of course applies not just to a &#8220;powered spectrum&#8221; but also to the more common reflected one that most animals utilize. So what is the relationship between efficiency and camouflage? Forgetting spectra for a moment…morphological maximum information packing, for example <a href="http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3475/3752977319_438d345de4.jpg?v=0" rel="nofollow"> holographic kinoforms </a>, appears like white noise without the knowledge of how to decompress it.  Some life is just so <a href="http://www.bnr-art.com/doolitt/pintos.htm" rel="nofollow"> obvious </a> that we miss it!</p>
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		<title>Comment on Alternate &#8220;life&#8221; styles: scientists predict the possibility of a Shadow Biosphere by Scientists predict the possibility of &#8220;shadow biosphere&#8221; &#124; Technoccult</title>
		<link>http://thebioblog.com/2010/02/alternate-life-styles-scientists-predict-the-possibility-of-a-shadow-biosphere/comment-page-1/#comment-101</link>
		<dc:creator>Scientists predict the possibility of &#8220;shadow biosphere&#8221; &#124; Technoccult</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Feb 2010 00:28:45 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] Biology Blog: Scientists predict the possibility of shadow biosphere [...]</description>
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